[00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to the pulse check podcast. My name is Mandy, I’m HeHe. And today we have two guests. We are talking about nurse whistle blowers and retaliation claims. We’re really stoked about it. So I wanna introduce you just getting right on into it because I know we’re gonna have a lot to talk about is we have with us, Sarah and Marian . Hi, both of you are nurses. Are you both on the west coast?

[00:00:27] No, I’m on the east coast. I’m in I’m in new England right now. 

[00:00:30] Me too. 

[00:00:32] I’m on the west coast 

[00:00:33] and Sarah’s on the west coast. Okay, great. Thank you so much. So just the only background that I have today, this is, this is how it happened. So if you’re like, oh, this podcast magic. No, I watch TikTok all the time.

[00:00:47] Y’all know that hehe and I are both on TikTok. We watch all the time and now I use it as my search engine finding like need to fix something or like make a recipe. I just go to TikTok and Sarah comes up on my for you and I’m gonna tell you, my for you page is it’s so good right now. It’s so good, right now.I think my for you page is trauma aware and knows me. And so we’re trying to today on the podcast I think we’re all as a nurses, hopefully learning to unlearn get our heads wrapped around the power and abuse dynamic and patterns, and not to continue to protect abusers. So Sarah pops up and she’s like, Hey, I’ve got COVID and I don’t have a filter.

[00:01:31] And I’m like, oh my God, what’s happening? She said, I’m getting retaliation abuse from my healthcare, like my hospital, because I spoke out about short staffing and nursing patient ratios. And so I’m like, Hey, I like go, we do all the things. So like, I go like a bunch of our videos after I watch all of ’em I’m commenting. And then I get right into our DMS. I’m like, Hey, I’m a stranger. I don’t know you, but I wanna talk to you more. You wanna get on my podcast? She goes, yes. And I have a friend I’m gonna bring named Marian . I was like, oh my gosh. So I would love to hear, tell the audience a little bit, Sarah, about your story that I saw on TikTok.

[00:02:16] And then how are you and Marian connected and what’s going on right now? I wanna hear what’s going on with Marian because you’re like in it right now. 

[00:02:24] Yeah. Okay. So, oh, I don’t even know where to start. I have been an ICU nurse, I think since 2014, have been a nurse since 2004, worked for that hospital system for five years before I was terminated. Had all very positive performance reviews. Never had a corrective action whatsoever. I do a union coordinated interview with the local media and I discussed short staffing and how it’s affecting the patients. And I get put on an administrative leave. I am on administrative leave for four months and then I am terminated. So. It has been, it’s been a journey. It’s been a journey and to go into details is just to open a whole can of worms. 

[00:03:16] yeah. 

[00:03:17] And so I kind of wait for people to ask me questions, like specific questions before I just like, you know, blah it out because otherwise I overshare. So let me just say that. After I was terminated, I, of course had internet searching anybody else who has gone through retaliation. And one of the first things that pop up from the same hospital system is Marian , except her case is in Alaska and she is a travel nurse, but terminated for the same reasons, basically, and so let’s see, how did I find you Marian ? Was it Twitter? 

[00:04:00] I think I think you did find me on Twitter. I don’t know. I think I, you found, did you find the article when K R B D posted about it or, or something like that? You saw like a news story on my case. 

[00:04:12] Yeah. So I was Googling retaliation, hospitals, nurses, and found the article. And then I got your name from the article and then went to social media. And that’s how I, yeah. 

[00:04:23] Yeah. I think it was Twitter. Yeah. I feel like I haven’t been back to Twitter in some time 

[00:04:28] and so I think that’s a good intro for Marian ‘s story. 

[00:04:32] Yeah. That’s a great intro. So you found Marian and you responded Marian .

[00:04:38] Yeah. So basically I started an assignment at PeaceHealth Ketch cam medical center, August 19th, 2021. I extended, I did an eight week extension off of my original 13 week contract. And then the, the timeline is so tight on August 18th, 2021 I signed a 17 week extension. Clearly they were pleased with my ability to care for their patients. On August 19th I voiced a patient and staff safety concerns related to COVID 19 patients and COVID 19 hazards.

[00:05:13] On August 20th it was caregiver appreciation day. They thanked me for extending and asked me what it would take to convince me to stay full time. And then six hour later the director of critical care services threatened my job. Following that I filed a patient safety incident report specific to the safety issues involving the patient and specific to the inadequate monitoring of critically ill.

[00:05:37] COVID 19 ICU patients. I filed an ethics complaint on the threatening phone call where an administrator threatened my job, you know, in response to my voicing, these concerns and a couple of days later, because that of course was the weekend. And you, we all know there’s no administrators in the building on the weekend.

[00:05:56] I came back to work on Monday. I worked a full shift without incident and on Tuesday I was terminated.

[00:06:00] And then my fight began. I filed with OSHA, dual, federal, and state whistleblower complaints. The next day on August 25th, I filed up with I’m not gonna get into the CMS side of things right now. I filed up with the national labor relations board. Incidentally, we just resolved that as of yesterday.

[00:06:21] Rather favorable. To me, they’ve had to, there is a public posting that will go up all over their facility for 60 days, it’ll be on their internet. They will be required to mail it to every employee that work there during the, when they terminate me, they are specifically required to mail it to every travel nurse.

[00:06:37] That language is very specific from the NLRB. They are assigned a compliance officer that will ensure that they comply with the demands of the NLRB. They have to pay me back, pay front, pay on the contract that they did not honor in lieu of reinstatement. So it’s kind of it’s kind of a big win actually, especially for travel nurses who think that they can be fired for any reason.

[00:06:56] Mm-hmm and you can’t, you absolutely cannot be fired in violation of federal and state laws. You know, and I, I think a lot of hospitals just aren’t, they’re not paying attention to that. Nurses are afraid to fight back and I’m just trying to forge a path to show everyone how to do it. And then Sarah and I joined forces basically as our sole sort of, kind of support and, you know, for each other, because it’s been isolating, it’s been emotionally traumatizing, it’s been a roller coaster.

[00:07:29] I’m, you know, I was supposed to be testifying today, but what can happen with the NLRB is they can settle something in a favorable, you know, settlement in lieu of testifying. If they, you know, if they feel that the terms are fair. So it’s just been an emotional up and down. You know, I was a witness prep for weeks, you know, mm-hmm and I still have an active OSHA investigation.

[00:07:52] And all I can say currently is I am pursuing every avenue of recourse to hold them accountable for every single federal and state law that they violated when they turn, when they silenced a nurse, trying to advocate for her patients and her and herself. Yeah. You know, and others. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

[00:08:13] Are you congratulations, able to 

[00:08:15] share the, some of the language around the posting that they have to post? Oh, here. Yeah. Let me pull it. Yeah, let me pull that and I should send that to you guys. It’s it’s so nice. You know, it’s got the big blue and white heading of the national labor relations board. It’s just, it’s so nice.

[00:08:31] You, are you talking about oh yeah. So the notice to employees, that’s gonna go up with all the official stamps. It goes over the usual stuff. Like we will not interfere with restrain or coerce you and the exercise of your above rights to basically engage and protect a concerted activities. Right.

[00:08:48] But the specific ones that are going to go up that everybody will read says we will pay Marian Weber who has waived her right to reinstatement, front pay equivalent to the wages she would’ve earned from the completion of a 17 week contract that we terminated before it began. We will reimburse Marian Weber for any wages and benefits.

[00:09:09] She lost as well as any consequential damages. She incurred including those in regard to travel lodging and moving prior to the end of her contract, because we terminated her contract. We will remove from our files, any references to the involuntary separation of Marian Weber. And we will notify her in writing that this has been done and that her separation will not be used against her in any way.

[00:09:36] when you sent that to me, I read it like five times, just kind of cackling. 

[00:09:40] Yeah. What a huge win, like. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a huge win. Where do they have to post that? Like, do they have to post that like in break in prominent? Yeah. They’re directed to post it. In prominent places throughout the facility, they also have to conduct meetings where they read the notice to the employees.

[00:10:00] I can 

[00:10:01] imagine just sitting on the plot being.

[00:10:04] That’s 

[00:10:05] where they post. Yeah. They consider prominent places, 

[00:10:08] the bathroom, the toilet. 

[00:10:10] Right, right. That’s where they, that’s where they hide your employee, you know, that’s, that’s 

[00:10:14] where we read the signs anyway, the back of the door. Yeah. 

[00:10:18] Yeah. 

[00:10:19] But that’s where you read it. And so you’re gonna be sitting there.

[00:10:23] Marian . They just paid Marian . Wow. Who’s Marian , Marian RN. I think everybody there knows, knows who Marian is. 

[00:10:33] Yeah. Yeah. I’ve done a lot of I’ve done a lot of news, you know, just interestingly, just to tell you guys I went public on September 24th with a local news station. I did a radio interview and they posted an article and four days later the administrator that terminated me abruptly resigned and left the island.

[00:10:52] It was like being on survivor because catch an island. She abruptly resigned and left the island. 

[00:10:57] Wow. Okay. So if that doesn’t make like a very public I’m embarrassed by my actions or I can’t cover up my actions on my house. Mm-hmm mm-hmm yeah. I have so many questions, but so you went public, which. Is totally against everything that we’re told yeah.

[00:11:18] To do. So right now, I’m in the midst of Marian , you were like fixing your attempting to fix your video. And I’m in the birth space, he’s in the birth space. I’m attempting to highlight, portray show, depict the similarities between working in healthcare and abusive relationships and how, 

[00:11:39] when I left. Ooh.

[00:11:40] Yeah. 

[00:11:42] Right when I left the hospital and I’m talking to my therapist, I’m like dumping all of this stuff and I’m like where to begin. I said, I feel like I’m unpacking 80 abusive relationships. Yep. and, you know, learning about trauma teaching about trauma, and now I’m trying to like embody it and walk the walk.

[00:12:04] I’m like, oh fuck. Like, ah, these are all professional relationships getting into it. We’re like perfect prey for, you know, we’re, we’re a type, nurses are a type we’re also made to be a type. That’s also part of the coercion, part of the manipulation control and power that’s within all of those, either systemic relationships or interpersonal relationships as you’re witnessing and feeling during this process going public is almost the opposite of what we’ve been told to do and what we’ve been trying to do since the beginning of nursing, right.

[00:12:41] We’ve always protected the abuse, covered it up and been quiet about it and been gas lit about it and been taught. To receive it in nursing school. Like, this is how, yeah. This is how it’s all worked this whole time. So the fact that you join forces together to support each other, isn’t revolutionary, but it should be talked about because that’s like, he and I introduced you backstage before we started record.

[00:13:11] That’s what we do in our business. That’s how we are business people. We are bringing on teams. We are working collaboratively with other powerhouse individuals that support us because for me as a nurse, that’s not where I came from. So I don’t know what that looks like or feels like. I just have to like, like you said, for forge my own path, it’s very isolating the nurses.

[00:13:34] Very isolating. Yeah. So yeah. In your experience in speaking out, did you already have 

[00:13:40] a lawyer before you. No, I did not. I couldn’t find one. Neither did Sarah. Yeah, because 

[00:13:46] that’s the tricky part. That’s one of the tricky parts. One is like being courageous enough to talk about it and be 

[00:13:55] on top 

[00:13:56] of all of the lies, the gas lighting, the, I mean, they told you all kinds of shit, I’m sure mm-hmm or gave you papers or dismissed you in ways that was like, this is a secret did they do that?

[00:14:12] They, they, for me, 

[00:14:13] they, yeah, definitely. I feel used tactics in 

[00:14:17] order to make sure that I wouldn’t talk about it. 

[00:14:20] Yeah. I recognize that. And that’s why I did. I was like, no, you’re not gonna, you’re not gonna do this. And that’s why I decided to talk about it publicly, because I just, I recognize that as such a, you know, oh, if, if we do it this way, then she’s not gonna wanna talk about it.

[00:14:41] It’s like an abusive relationship, any sort of relationship that you’re in, you can almost like identify what they’re gonna say and know that they’re saying it because it’s important. and so if you flip it, it hurts. Yeah. But if what 

[00:14:57] they don’t realize though, what they don’t realize is that you are protected.

[00:15:01] That is protected speech. When you engage in informing the public. I definitely miss my calling. I think I’m an excellent nurse and I’m committed to nursing, but this is why I’m pivoting to law school. But you know, when you are alerting the public to matters of public interest that jeopardize their safety, you know, practices that are going on you are that is te technically protected speech.

[00:15:23] But people don’t realize that. Now, Sarah and I share a lot with a doctor who was terminated at peace health, Dr. Minglin, whose case went viral in 2020. And they attacked him for going to social media to complain about lack thereof of safety protocols. And in PPE, you know, in the height of the pandemic.

[00:15:45] And they said he violated like their social media policy. There is a great article. That can point you to how that speech is actually protected for me when I decided to go public It’s because the connection, you know, the connection that the hospital doesn’t want you to make in a very public manner is that when they silence us, it creates an unsafe environment for everyone.

[00:16:08] And ultimately it’s the communities that we serve that pay the price. It’s the patients that pay the price. So it’s not that they just got rid of a squeaky will or an annoying travel nurse or a nurse that’s really concerned about patient safety. They violated the trust between their system and the community that they serve.

[00:16:27] And so, you know, in, in my particular case, we are talking about the failure to adequately monitor ICU patient. When you had readily available ICU resource, But you chose not to use them. Right. Okay. So for me, it was like, I, I had, I had no choice, but to go public because it’s a small hospital. It’s the only hospital on this island.

[00:16:51] So if you work at the hospital, you can’t go down the road and work at another hospital. So these employees are working under fear of constant retaliation for doing their jobs of being good patient and nurse advocates. And the community needed to be aware that this practice endangered their safety. So that was it.

[00:17:08] I was on a public mission from then on to highlight and connect the dots for the community, how, you know, to get them to understand what we do as nurses and how every little thing impacts their outcome and the decisions that hospitals make. And we haven’t gotten to the motivation as to why they put those patients in med surg rooms.

[00:17:27] When they had Mt. ICU rooms, I’m still trying to find out the motivation behind that decision. And I think the public is owed an answer. Why would you jeopardize a patient’s safety when you had resources that were available and you weren’t using, and those conversations should not take place behind closed doors, between attorneys in an attempt to settle something.

[00:17:47] Those conversations need to be out in the public, and everybody needs to be aware of the risk and the cost associated with it. So, yeah. Oh, sorry. I gonna say it’s me and Sarah versus a Goliaths peace health right now. You know but it’s not just us because there’s, there’s more, there’s more, yeah, there’s more coming.

[00:18:03] There’s more filings from other people coming. Yeah. And it’s not just say that 

[00:18:09] again, Mandy. It’s not just peace health. Oh no, no. It’s everywhere. They’re not in a silo. They’re just 

[00:18:15] one of them. Yeah. 

[00:18:17] And maybe I shouldn’t say this, but 

[00:18:20] they seem to have a lot of cases in the 

[00:18:22] news. 

[00:18:23] Yeah. Right now they probably have the most retaliation cases against them.

[00:18:29] So we’ll just continue to see as those grow. Yeah. 

[00:18:31] And it’s a possibly a snowball we’ll never know. Do they have more cases than anyone else? Or is it a strength in numbers and the work that y’all are doing? 

[00:18:41] Yeah, my guess, yeah, 

[00:18:43] the work y’all are doing in the public eye where we’re like, it’s always felt like this.

[00:18:48] It’s all I knew it. I, this is it. I’m getting a lawyer and I’m doing it. Many of us are sitting here, you know, or like stewing underneath. And we’re like, we don’t have the language. We don’t know the law. We don’t know how to get into it. We’ve never seen it done. They’ve told us not to we’re products of abuse everywhere in our lives.

[00:19:05] Yeah. Right. We’ve never done this before, anywhere in our life. We wouldn’t do it to the Goliath. Right. The Goliath. Yeah. You just said like they have built up this. Impossible impenetrable outer shell and you’re doing it. And so while the door’s open, everybody needs to just go do it. That’s right. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re the worst.

[00:19:30] It just means 

[00:19:30] the doors are oh, no, no. It’s systemic. As a travel nurse, I’m uniquely positioned as far as I’ve worked in hospitals across the country. I can tell you, I have yet to really encounter one that doesn’t engage in some sort of retaliatory unsafe practice. Yeah. Right, right, right, 

[00:19:43] right. Right.

[00:19:44] All right. I’m sorry. He. 

[00:19:47] No, not at all. Marian , I wanted to dive into, when you said that patients in the community were paying the price because not all of our listeners are in healthcare. When you have nurses and providers who are working in a system that doesn’t make them feel safe, or they are coming to work every day, fearful that their job is going to be retaliated against.

[00:20:09] Just share a little bit about what is the community looking, you know, to, as far as that compromised care, I think a lot of listeners might be like, yeah, but how, like I went to the, the doctor during COVID and didn’t feel unsafe to me. It’s probably not apparent to you as a consumer sitting in that bed.

[00:20:29] So Sarah Marian , what kind of prices are communities paying for this. Well, let’s talk about what is the worst case scenario when you are unable to effectively advocate for your patient’s safety, it can lead to harm and or death. I mean, that is when we, you know, when we’re talking about this, it’s important to keep that in mind.

[00:20:50] So, you know, the message to patients is we will endeavor to engage in a nationwide education campaign, you know, because I feel it’s necessary to show you that if I’m saying. By placing you in a room, you know, an ICU level patient, just to give you an example in a room where you cannot be effectively monitored it, you could die as a result, you know, and if I’m saying, Hey, this is not a safe scenario, let’s explore a safer option.

[00:21:20] And I’m being terminated by voicing that concern. The patient is still in an unsafe position and it’s not being addressed. When they terminate somebody or retaliate in some form it does create this. Chilling effect that spreads out across the hospital. So nurses become in healthcare workers, doctors, you know, respiratory therapists, your nurses, a everyone becomes more afraid to actually voice safety concerns and thereby jeopardizing the patient’s safety.

[00:21:48] And that could lead to a bad patient outcome again, which could be physical, you know, emotional, mental harm, and, you know, God forbids. You know, as a result of not timely addressing safety issues. And I don’t think that patients understand that a lot of we, you know, we’re not just there to follow orders that are given to us by a doctor we’re there as part of an interdisciplinary team.

[00:22:12] We’re highly skilled, highly educated. We use critical thinking skills to identify inherent risk. You know, we trend, you know, vitals. We watch very closely to see if patients are deteriorating to prevent further deterioration. And anytime that we are kept from doing this, like in Sarah’s case, mentioning unsafe staffing ratios, if you can’t take care of your patient adequately, who pays that price?

[00:22:34] Well, the patient does. Yeah. I feel like what I’ve been watching happen throughout my whole career is healthcare workers becoming 

[00:22:45] desensitized 

[00:22:46] to conditions that are 

[00:22:48] appalling mm-hmm 

[00:22:50] and. You know, just getting beat down, like why complain about it? Because nothing’s gonna happen? Why say anything? Because it just tar it paints a target on your back.

[00:23:00] It just feels like we are a bunch of beaten down desensitized people at this point that are working in a broken system where we see failures happen on a day to day basis and nobody speaks up and it’s scary. It’s frightening. It’s frightening for our patients for the thought of ourselves becoming sick or our families becoming sick and needing healthcare services.

[00:23:28] Yeah, shit. That’s all kinds of trauma layered on top of each other because you are seeing it and you’re living it. Mm-hmm so you’re especially my work in paranatal healthcare. We’re witnessing trauma. We’re experiencing trauma all at the same time. Yeah, I think you’re totally right. Desensitized to appalling conditions, desensitized to abuse and neglect, desensitized to short staffing.

[00:23:52] And we can see it happen. I mean, outside now, nursing friends will call me, will say like, they call me every Wednesday on this Wednesday, they had this number of patients to take care of. And three Wednesdays later, they’re like, they told me that was a one time. Now she’s a normal thing. Now she’s a normal thing.

[00:24:11] What are we gonna do now? It’s just four Wednesdays. After that. They’re like, motherfucker, if I did not get one more patient again today, and I said, 

[00:24:20] this was the last time. 

[00:24:22] And like, what’s the recourse. This is the last time they’re like, well, let’s try it again. And it’s since COVID, it’s just 

[00:24:29] like everyone.

[00:24:31] Yeah. Everyone can see it. And it’s very clear, but again, what’s happening. Like what? Or just again, desensitized to it. We don’t feel like there’s any recourse. Your stories I think are so hugely powerful because, well, one, we have, we have information on what to do and how to do it. And two, we can see what happens when it’s successful.

[00:24:57] Yes. And when it positively impacts the community because of education positively impacts other nurses, because they can do their job, maybe things change. Maybe they’ve just seen the story. And hopefully positively impact you because of all of this. Like Marian said, it’s emotional, it’s isolating, it’s traumatizing its work and it’s unpaid.

[00:25:20] And you 

[00:25:21] know, Sarah shares in this experience, she I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna speak to anything that’s going on, like you know, within your family dynamic, but she’ll understand where I’m going. You know, with this, you know, when I witness this total breakdown between a healthcare delivery system on this island and the community it serves, I didn’t just witness it as a nurse.

[00:25:41] I have stage four for non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma as diagnosed with cancer in 2014. So I’m witnessing this as a patient and the idea. That if I’m placed in a situation where I cannot advocate for myself and I’ve had life changing cancer surgery, whereas on an or table for six hours and came out with a, with a devastating diagnosis.

[00:26:01] If I’m in a position where I can’t advocate myself, I inherently know that my nurses that are doing total body 24 7 care are not advocating for me either outta fear of retaliation. Yeah. It’s a complete betrayal and breakdown. So even as a patient, I have no confidence going into the medical system that I’m being, you know, that my, you know, that I’m being adequately cared for and that people are intentionally and willfully being said it for failure.

[00:26:31] And then the nurses are burnt out and bitter, and they’re not speaking up, you know, even though technically we are mandated reporters of unsafe conditions it’s so from a patient standpoint, it’s absolutely devastating. And I want other patients, I hate to, I mean, I don’t wanna cause any trauma, but other patients need to get this at a visceral level.

[00:26:49] Like I do and understand the connection between the, the systemic failures that could lead to my unfortunate and early demise, if that were to ever happen. Mm-hmm so I just need them to make those connections to understand how serious and significant easy issues are. Mm-hmm 

[00:27:04] mm-hmm Mary and I have had a lot 

[00:27:06] of discussions on, you know, how do we engage the public?

[00:27:10] Yeah. About the healthcare system. It, you know, because nobody thinks about it until a loved one or themselves are in the hospital. And then they’re like, what’s going on here? When you know, 

[00:27:22] we’re screaming about it from the sidelines. And 

[00:27:25] it is very frustrating to watch that, you know, It, it just doesn’t seem to matter until 

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[00:27:32] they’re in that position and it’s too late to do 

[00:27:34] anything about it then.

[00:27:37] And then they forget when they leave the hospital. so it’s, it’s it’s a frustrating position 

[00:27:41] to be in. 

[00:27:42] Yeah. We talked about this recently on a recent podcast with Dr. Chrissy sheer. Who’s a family medicine physician in Canada and was trained in the us and she’s on. So we met on social media, right? Like where else do we meet?

[00:27:56] And one, cuz that’s badass that nurses are meeting other nurses and physicians and healthcare practitioners around the globe. So we’re fucking talking to each other. I, I knew that was like the, I was like, this is interesting, like giant Facebook groups of nurses talking to each other. I was like, well, first that’s fucking traumatizing trauma dump.

[00:28:22] Crazy. Yeah. Yes. But it’s never happened before. and so we can do this. Like you guys are BI coastal, and you guys are supporting each other and we can do this and we are doing this. So we were talking about how hard it is to share information online. One, because no, one’s getting it. And no, one’s like getting it.

[00:28:43] It’s not like sinking in until you’re in it. And you see, you don’t have a nurse and it’s way late way late for that, but also the fear of hurting others. And I’ll just point out Mary. Because you’re doing such amazing work. And because I want to like pour into the work that you’re doing and to you, I want you to know you are not traumatizing anyone by telling your story, the trauma is there.

[00:29:08] Yeah. It’s happened or it’s going to happen, or you’re potentially preventing other from happening it happening. You’re getting, you’re giving information to allow others to make autonomous informed choices, right. Which is absolutely our role and our favorite part of nursing. Usually mm-hmm, we get to give this information and a variety of ways so that folks can understand it so they can make decisions for their own care and their own safety.

[00:29:40] And we need the general public to be making these decisions. It cannot be just come from nurses and they do remember their care in the hospital. Outside of the hospital. We take care of birthing folks and they remember it. In fact, for generations and the stories they tell about their experiences last for generations.

[00:30:00] And that’s how we have such scary birth stories right now. Hmm. Because we put birth in hospitals and destroyed it. not destroyed it, but we mismanaged, it made it dangerous. Right. And now everyone’s scared of having a baby when really we really need to change that conversation to everyone should be scared to have a baby in a hospital and like advocate around that.

[00:30:22] Right. They make those 

[00:30:22] changes. 

[00:30:25] They do remember, they do remember cuz they’re in a position of vulnerability, which doesn’t happen very often and they may not be able to be the advocate. They wish they were in that, in that place of vulnerability. Or they may not be able to be their own advocate at all.

[00:30:38] Like you said, but they hopefully remember. So your story will impact those little inside little tiny feelings that people are like, you know, It didn’t really line up with what I was expecting someone to be caring for me to feel like and we’re like, yes, you’re right. Dig into that. What do we do? Your resource?

[00:30:59] What can you do? Do you have money? Do you have influence? Do you have power? Do you have vote? Do you, whatever right. Choose who you gonna see, 

[00:31:06] whatever. 

[00:31:06] So I feel like this could be a book, like I’m really excited to hear stories and I’m, I’m excited to hear. You you just, the way you talk about it, you’re like, oh yeah, we’re just beginning.

[00:31:18] We’re just getting started. Bitches. 

[00:31:21] yeah, we, Sarah and I have actually, everyone else we’ve talked about a book. We’ve talked about a book on I all different levels. 

[00:31:27] so I don’t know. It’s definitely 

[00:31:30] we’re, you know, we’re collaborating on an advocacy platform called nurses fight back that I hope to launch in the next couple of weeks.

[00:31:37] That’s really gonna walk people through all these processes and oh yes. Make it easier for them to figure out how to file when to file, where to file. And yeah. 

[00:31:47] That’s exactly it. That was my question. I have like national nurses United pulled up over here. Ana pulled up over here. We’ve got so much information, but the same for like bad behavior in in healthcare.

[00:32:01] If there’s a person who is having bad behavior and you’re trying to report them. And it goes nowhere because they’re like, oh, thank you very much. We’re gonna put this in that special drawer where we right. Tear it up and forget about it for 10 years. What I see on Sarah’s platform is, oh, this is where I reported.

[00:32:21] This is so OSHA in LRB department of health all at the same time. And then there’s like different statutes of limitations. And so you have to work quickly, but then what do you say? How do you do it? What if they delay? How do you, do you, when do you get a lawyer? How do you get a lawyer? There’s a lot that people are like, it’s a lot to like do in a very short period of time.

[00:32:43] It’s kind of what it sounds like. 

[00:32:45] And, oh my gosh, different challenges you face when, you know. Yeah. I wish I had somebody to walk me through the whole OSHA process at the time. It’s like, you need a support group for just reporting to certain. You need people that have successfully reported walk you through it?

[00:33:04] Because, so in the last couple of weeks, I have walked no less than five nurses and they’ve all filed reports with the NLRB. One of them actually just settled very fast with the board settlement, interestingly enough way faster than my case was. But and it was interesting because you’re right.

[00:33:19] People don’t know how to fill out the forms and, you know, technical mistakes can cause delays and issues. And that’s one of the things that I wanted to walk people through because we become so tied to our story and our experience. We can’t step back and tell it in a way that’s constructive. In a legal sense, cuz we’re too emotionally attached and we get in the wheats on things.

[00:33:42] And you know, just to give you an example, your first complaint with the NLRB, the only thing you ever have to say is I was terminated. I was retaliated in the form of termination for engaging in protected concerted activity. That’s it? That is the one sentence you have to say. That is it. You don’t need to say anymore that alone tells them that you are aware that, you know, you’re claiming a charge of retaliation.

[00:34:07] And that you’re saying that you engaged in activity protected by federal law. You don’t need to be, like he said, she said, he said, she said in this happened just simply I was retaliated for engaging in protected concerted activity. They’re highly skilled, educated field. Attorneys will reach out to you and then take a sworn affidavit and they know how to guide you through that process.

[00:34:26] And then that’s where your story comes out, you know, but people don’t understand, you know, the process. They also don’t understand, you know, If your intent is to hold a system accountable for, for, you know, my intent with peace health, because it’s not isolated to one hospital, it spans across three states.

[00:34:46] I am in a unique position possibly to do something in a federal forum through something called diversity jurisdiction. Because I’m a travel nurse from Louisiana. This happened in Alaska. They’re headquartered in Washington. So I’m exploring this because I think it’s important that we hold them accountable for every possible violation that’s out there.

[00:35:03] But if you’re going to do that, the way that the legal system works is it can prohibit you from doing that. If you file in one area that then that then gets rid of an ability to file in another, even though the remedy possibly wasn’t a satisfactory remedy that would deter future bad behavior, you get very engaged in the legal process quick, and you learn how ultimately the entire, you know, system can fail to adequately hold.

[00:35:31] These huge corporations responsible for the kind of behavior that can lead to poor patient outcomes. So very quickly, you’ve got to understand strategy and here you are a nurse that’s been terminated, not a legal expert. You know, you need to know that, you know, should you file with OSHA and the NLRB.

[00:35:49] You actually, you don’t need an attorney for that. You don’t need that. They’ll be able to handle certain aspects of violations without an attorney. Getting involved in something, you should know that there should be carve outs for that. You’re you have to learn all of this. And it gets very emotional because we’re learning in real time.

[00:36:07] And the clock is ticking on statute of limitations. And Sarah and I go through this again and again, because we’re just like, wow, we’re learning in real time. We learn when mistakes have been made that that can be costly and your pursuit to hold a system accountable. And that can feel devastating because if the only thing that’s keeping you together, the only thing that’s keeping my shit together is that I have committed to a course of action to write a wrong, that affects patients.

[00:36:32] And if I’m, if obstacles come up and you know, that subvert, that course it’s devastating because you’re like, where do I go from here? And I can’t go back to what was, you know? Yeah. And you just feel that everything has failed. Yeah. 

[00:36:47] Yeah. You have to reevaluate your whole reason for doing it every single time.

[00:36:52] One of the most traumatizing 

[00:36:53] things in this whole process is just realizing 

[00:36:57] or coming to the realization that even, you know, 

[00:37:02] even if you push this to the fullest extent, will it even affect that corporation so much to make a change? And a lot of times. It isn’t and so that’s defeating. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God.

[00:37:20] We really go down a dark hole and we start think when Sarah and I start talking about that because we’ve done so much legal research. Both of us have, we have pulled every possible case. We can looking at similar scenarios and to see have hospitals change. And when you look at a hospital system like peace health, the cases just keep coming and I’m, we’re like, well, this hasn’t deterred bad behavior.

[00:37:42] So when you’re, for instance, when you wanna go after them for a whistleblower violation or a wrongful termination in violation of public policy, in a state, you know which is a torric claim, which can make you eligible for punitive damages. And the reason why punitive damages exist is because that is a penalty assessed against an organization.

[00:38:03] And you’re penalizing them with a hard financial hit in the attempt to deter future bad behavior. Because the acknowledgement of saying, oh, we terminated somebody for voicing safety concerns, slap our hand. We won’t do that again. We’ll post some notices. Right. But with these systems that put profits before patients, it seems the only thing that ever You know, would en encourage them to change their behavior is something that affects their profits.

[00:38:28] Okay. So you get in that mindset and you’re like, well, we’ve gotta take it all the way, and they’ve gotta be hit as hard as they can because we have to send a message that ripples across the nation, and that we’re not gonna tolerate this abusive behavior that leads to bad patient outcomes again. But how much is effective to determine bad behavior, you are restricted in every state, depending on how you file a case.

[00:38:48] Mm-hmm depending on your actual filing, that will determine how hard a system can be hit with like a punitive damage. It’s it’s insane. You know, it’s just, it’s 

[00:38:59] insane. It’s been longing for that for forever. Yeah. Yeah. So that you specifically hit this and we’ve been working in silos and individualized and separated for forever.

[00:39:11] Yeah. Yeah. So, and. You’re learning all of this in real time, your mistakes matter for your case. So that hits the hardest and hurts the hardest, the way to make it more impactful. This is just coming from my brain, cuz this is how my brain works is to help the next million nurses do the same thing. Yeah.

[00:39:31] And like magnify it and multiply it. And also coming from a place of privilege, which I can’t speak to all of it. You have, we, as nurses come from a place of privilege, we know the inside. It’s very different than patients doing this. Mm-hmm who have been affected. And also like I’m thinking my kids would be at home while I’m doing all of this research.

[00:39:53] Well, I’m getting my minor in legalese. on the free worldwide web is like there’s how many nurses. Had to go find another place of employment and not saying you guys didn’t, but like, I can hear the amount of time that this is taking how many nurses, this was their second job. They had to go find another place of employment.

[00:40:15] Mm-hmm they’re, you know, they had to pull their kids outta childcare. They lost their childcare, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They lost their other place of employment. They lost their home because they were like, Sarah said she was on like, what was it? You weren’t terminated for three and a half months yet.

[00:40:30] It was, it was a four like 

[00:40:32] almost four month investigatory leave. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:40:34] There, I mean, I, I’m not here to say you have to do this. I am saying I can identify that this work is more than most folks. Can do for a variety of reasons, probably more than you feel like you can a lot days . So that’s why I’m like so grateful that you found each other.

[00:40:59] Yeah, I totally understand why Sarah was like, yes, I can come call MI and let’s call MI and let’s come with Mary . I get it. Like, this is your peer counselor, right? These are your you’ve, you’ve forged it together. And I feel like that would be totally necessary in the folks who didn’t have someone else, like, how is this even done?

[00:41:21] This is why it hasn’t been done, or hasn’t been done enough to make an effect. And yeah, it sounds really, really nearly impossible. I, I, it feels impossible that has helped so many travel nurses. Like I, 

[00:41:37] because travel nurses, like right now, they are the majority in the hospital. . 

[00:41:42] And she has helped so many travel nurses who have been retaliated against, and to me that is just like, I love it.

[00:41:50] I’m so 

[00:41:51] I’m so happy that she’s been able to help so many people walk through this process. 

[00:41:57] Yeah. You all are part of the shift that’s happening for sure. 

[00:42:00] Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I not to take it from a positive note, but just further, you know, Sarah and I have tried to identify ways yeah. To create a better support and peer network because we It’s interesting, like all the experiences we’ve had, even with a lack of support amongst our, you know, within our own industry and people need to be, you know, prepared for every pitfall so that we can help build them up and they can continue their, like, you know, of course, you know, to, to be a catalyst for change.

[00:42:29] And it’s been difficult for us, you know? And like you say, nobody knows how to do these things. And then sometimes you run into people. Wanna have a proprietary ownership in telling people how to do these things. So there is a there, you know, the, the realm OFAC, okay. Was just a forum. I don’t understand, but you know, there’s, there’s the race to be the, the best advocate that ever lived, but you have to play by their rules in order to get their support in order to even share stories.

[00:42:57] Like we have just gone through trauma after trauma, after trauma in trying to, you know, bring this delay and get support and make people like, understand why they need to support nurse led litigation and support people who are going through this to hold systems accountable. And the lack of support even amongst our peer community sometimes is some of the most traumatic, like, you know, you’re just like, wow, you know, why, why, why continue.

[00:43:23] Everybody hates their guard up too. So like, you know, when you come across stories like ours, 

[00:43:27] you know, I think the automatic judgment is like, oh, well they must have done something. 

[00:43:33] Or, you know, they must have done something to deserve 

[00:43:35] it. And so it 

[00:43:36] it’s, 

[00:43:38] I think everybody just has a guard up and they’re like, well, 

[00:43:42] they probably did something because we don’t hear about this every day.

[00:43:44] Well, you don’t hear about it every day because people don’t talk about it. Yeah. You just start talking about it. Yeah. 

[00:43:51] I love all of this and I love this conversation and now I’m like, yep. That’s abuse. That’s the victim. That’s what everyone does to the Vic. Didn’t you watch Johnny din whatever her name is, or I just did it, Amanda, her Amanda herd.

[00:44:04] Yeah. Something like, right. And everyone’s like, oh my God. I’m like, shut the fuck up. Like, this is domestic violence. We don’t get an opinion. Right. We don’t get an opinion on domestic violence. Same with yeah. Nurse horizontal violence. Yes. Oh my gosh. I’m so interested to like, watch this progress. That sounds really horrible.

[00:44:27] What I mean is I’m so interested to see how you grow. helping other nurses, winning your cases, magnifying your experience in pursuit of holding systems accountable, improving nurse work environments, improving patient safety. Yeah. After saying Johnny D and Amanda heard I’m like, oh, I can’t wait to launch this.

[00:44:49] That’s so terrible. I wrote down can’t wait to launch how it turns out for you. No, I can’t wait to like, promote the shit outta your shit and get it done and do it it together. Yes, we are in this work. We, and he, he and I talk about this all the time. Pretty much everyone that I get on a zoom call with.

[00:45:10] I’m like, Hey, I’m a white lady working on my, like, unlearning of. My systems of oppression and also anti-racism work. And also in, you know, my part in white supremacy and unlearning all of that. And that’s, that’s what, that’s what we’re all trying to do parallel and together and that whole having to win and make it profitable and make it be the first and be the best and be the only that that comes back as like, oh my gosh, that’s totally like within me and was within me and is part of, it’s just a pillar of right.

[00:45:50] White supremacy. And so you can do this without all of that nonsense. That’s just the part of the noise. Yeah. I just say, you know, also, you know, since you bring up the white supremacy 

[00:46:02] and the privilege, I mean, yeah, we need to do this for. Everyone, but especially for the minorities in nursing too, because they see the brunt of it.

[00:46:14] And it is 

[00:46:15] it’s heartbreaking. Yeah. Worse than we’ve ever seen, right. Worse than I’ve 

[00:46:18] ever seen. Oh yeah. It’s level. When I look at you know, the nurses that I work with side by side and it’s you know, their trauma, their experience, their discriminatory experience, you know, it’s you know, and I come from hospital systems in the south and I’m not saying it’s just relegated to the south, it’s everywhere.

[00:46:34] But some from some particularly bad areas, as rampant, as like discrimination and inequality, you know, it’s still there and we know it and we see it, you know, and it’s crazy. So, you know, we are out there fighting against wrongful and unlawful employment practices at jeopardize patient safety. At the same time, understanding there’s a whole community of nurses that it affects even on an extra level, you know, it’s just compounded yeah.

[00:47:00] Where it become. Dangerous. Yeah. To tell their story where it becomes like threatening to tell their story. So, yes. Thank you for saying that. And thank you for telling your story when that’s not possible. Not that not that we’re saving anyone or doing anything that others can’t do, but we don’t have a, you know, life threats on our lives or at least from the immediate get, go threats to our lives just by going to public outlets, which is what you both did initially.

[00:47:29] Yeah. And, and we see that. So if, yeah, thank you for saying that. And. I think it’s important that we, white ladies need to be talking about that privately and publicly as we do the work, I don’t know Marian if you’re a white lady, but I am, I 

[00:47:44] am I’m I’m German, Irish. I’m pretty, pretty freaking white, actually my Irish.

[00:47:48] Oh my gosh. I’m 

[00:47:49] German. 

[00:47:49] Irish too. 

[00:47:50] Yeah, but I’m like the, I’m like the blue, I’m the blue eye blonde German, Irish with like the super, super pale skin. So I’m like, you know, I have to speak out. I cannot not speak out because I have the ability to speak out without the, you know, the threat. So I’m just like, of course.

[00:48:08] I mean, yes, of course. That’s my role. That’s what I have to do. No choice, you know, and I’m not saying that in a bad way. I’m just saying, obviously I have a moral compass, you know, 

[00:48:18] right. And you’re not doing it just, just for. You’re one corner of the world. No, no, you’re doing it in big, big ways so that we know it can be done.

[00:48:28] You can teach about it. You can be an advocate because people can’t go through this alone. The study that I’m working currently working on and reading and digging into and nurses found the most support in colleagues support. That’s what we’re doing. Bitches out here on the free world. 

[00:48:46] making our own 

[00:48:47] unit try to stop us now.

[00:48:50] Oh 

[00:48:50] my God. Mandy, can I just address that comment you just made and Sarah’s totally gonna get on board with this one thing that Sarah and I have talked about when we talk to the press, when we talk to attorneys, There is such a gap of knowledge of the healthcare system in nurses roles. And it, I have literally almost bashed my head against a wall, just trying to explain the very basic concepts that we grasp.

[00:49:15] I have like worked, I worked very hard. There’s an NBC story that came out. I worked very hard in developing a relationship with them, just to get them to tell that story from a nurse’s perspective, you know, they were going, it was going to be shelved. And we got the story, you know, I was persistent and persistent and persistent in educating everyone and connecting the dots between nursing care and patient outcomes.

[00:49:38] And even when you’re talking to legal counsel, it’s like, it’s like, okay, I’m gonna get the whiteboard out and I’m gonna connect this.to this dot, and then we’re gonna connect this.to that dot. And then let’s go look at the overall picture as to how this is affecting whole communities. And it’s just like people.

[00:49:54] And then that’s when we realize people don’t know what we do. They don’t know what we do. And so the only real support you can get is from somebody that absolutely understands the industry, you know, and the outside world, no clue, which is pretty much how they want it, I guess, because if people really were informed and knew, we wouldn’t be in these situations, so 

[00:50:14] exactly.

[00:50:14] Yeah. We go to have babies and everyone’s like no offense, but, and I’m like, right. Where’s the doctor. Yeah. All right. Well, welcome. Welcome. This is what I do. And they’re like, aren’t you tired? I’m like, 

[00:50:26] I’m gonna, we’re gonna go. Like, I can’t, 

[00:50:30] I don’t get paid enough to like even do therapy here. Okay. Yeah, for sure.

[00:50:36] For sure, for sure. Yeah, we do have to yeah, help others understand, but, or shortcut and be our own allies. Right. And like we’re built in for that, so, okay. Fight nurses fight back. Right. We’re gonna be watching for that. Okay, nurses fight back is coming. We will. So can people just, do we wait for that?

[00:50:57] Do we contact you the way we’ve already like, talked about sneaking our way into your DMS? What can people do right now? Go 

[00:51:06] follow you, learn your story. Yeah, they can, they can go follow us. I know I just tightened up all my social media just because I’m making, you know, some plans. And 

[00:51:15] I’m just, you know, protecting myself, you know, for 

[00:51:19] that.

[00:51:19] But but they can always send a follow request. And then what I will do when the website and all the social media launches simultaneously for nurses fight back is I’ll just like email you guys. You can always point people to it. We have, there’s gonna be like a series of interactive maps.

[00:51:36] They’re gonna be able to click on their state, know where to file, you know, we’re trying to make it as easy as possible. And then it’ll be a place. Yeah, it, we have a lot of things that we’re working on that, that we hope to see. It it’ll be a, a work in progress, but at least get some immediate information and a place where people can go to file the to follow these cases and learn why these cases matter, you know, and how they can be supportive of them.

[00:51:58] Yeah. And you can always reach me through you know, TikTok of course, and, and Facebook 

[00:52:04] and Twitter. I 

[00:52:05] I’m public. I don’t hide anything. So also you can email me at S E C O L L I N S 1 0 1, gmail.com. If you have any questions about advocacy reporting, 

[00:52:17] anything like that. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for your time and your experience and your stories and your expertise.

[00:52:25] I am so honored to get to know you. Thank you much actually 

[00:52:30] is wonderful. It’s it’s always therapeutic to talk about. Yeah, it really is. 

[00:52:34] Wow. This has been so much fun. I know that it can seem like we’re like four humans that hate the hospital system and we’re just like out to get them, but if you really stop and ground yourself and think about this on a bigger scale. There are so much here. There’s so much unlearning. There’s so much unraveling.

[00:52:53] This is the dismantling of a system that has abused everybody from top down, from bottom up left to right. And then, you know, all angles in between that. So Sarah Marian , thank you so much for being here. Mandy tell people where they can connect with us, where they can submit their stories and how they might be able to share their experience in the hospital system.

[00:53:18] Good or bad with us on our podcast. 

[00:53:20] Yeah, sure. Drop us a line on Instagram at pulse checkup podcast. We’ll send you the quick little questionnaire and we’ll have you here. We’re happy to share your story anonymously or not like it was today and go give us a like, and a listen. We’ll see you next time.

[00:53:36] Bye bye. 

[00:53:37] Bye. Bye .