[00:00:00] you dug into like a huge fear and like, obviously I’m working through it and it’s, it’s comes up sometimes still, but there’s not a night that I don’t go to bed and wonder like, did saying that cause more harm. Oh, right. Like, okay. I talk about stirrups and I talk about the relationship that they are.

[00:01:12] Deep inside to someone’s unconscious. They are a trap. They are at a restraint. They, they are a restraint. And if we get, we get into a stirrup and we get into a bed and we put our legs up and we dropped the bed and you put a 10 pound weight on your belly, try jumping out. When someone hurt you, like try turning over, try getting out, try putting the bottom of the bed back on by yourself.

[00:01:42] Like it is a restraint. And I know that visualization. I know it’s harmful for folks who are so passionate about helping and so passionate about birth. And I like, we feel it in this way that we’re like sucked in, even though it hurts. And even though it’s hard and even though it’s wild, we’re sucked in.

[00:02:05] Like you said the, the through, through residency, like I have to, I have a connection with OB GYN. We survive this, but it’s, it’s in such an ugly way right now. It’s it’s fixable. We go through the trauma ourselves. I don’t want to hurt anyone by connecting those dots, but I don’t think not connecting those dots is more helpful.

[00:02:31] I think connecting those dots is helpful. We can have these conversations, but like, yeah, there’s always that risk that we’re gonna, we’re gonna say something that is harmful and that is not trauma-informed. And I do not have trauma aware language all the time on social media, because that’s not the language that’s being used right now.

[00:02:53] It’s, 

[00:02:53] It’s a net. It’s a net. I hope to get the ears of the folks that are curious, like, oh, that that’s a connection that maybe I’m interested in, but it’s really not the whole story, 

[00:03:05] but 

[00:03:05] you, I wholeheartedly agree with what you’re saying. And I have the same fear all the time when I speak about non, you know, reproductive based things.

[00:03:16] And like, did I make this like mental health and other things? Did I make this worse? 

[00:03:20] But there are certain things that I do in office to mitigate that, that you’re doing naturally by being on social media. A really great example is I don’t have conversations about what a pap or a pelvic or assault and everything like that is going to look like when my patient has disrobed, we have that conversation clothed like clothed Even if I find something abnormal on a pelvic, I say, look, take a little time. Get centered, get dressed, crack the door when you’re ready and I’ll come in and chat about it because this is not a conversation we should be having while you’re naked between your legs, right? Yes. So we wait. And so I think there is a bit of a buffer in social media in that you can be a little bit more, I still think people should try when they can, when it’s appropriate and applicable to you.

[00:04:13] use more sensitive language, but if you can’t, if your message is not going to get across in a way that is genuine and authentic, 

[00:04:19] At least social media allows you to have that conversation when the patient is home and safe and dressed, and isn’t looking at strangers and can digest this and have a visceral reaction in a way that is not in front of six random people with their legs open as they’re trying to have a baby.

[00:04:40] And I would think that the benefit of having those conversations. Early and often, and exposing folks to things that are going to potentially be difficult for them to hear before getting to that space is so much more empowering than using a softer language and having them exactly, like you said, having them show up to that birthing space and having someone else throw the word stir up at them.

[00:05:04] And that being the first time they recognize what this is going to entail. Yeah. Because we weren’t with anybody else. Right. Like no surgeon waits until you show up to the OR to be like, by the way, I’m going to have to, you know, cut you your abdomen open, right. Like no one waits until that space to tell them that.

[00:05:26] Right. Nobody waits until the day of a colonoscopy to explain to a patient what that’s going to look like. Right. So why are we all pretending like it’s somehow acceptable to wait until the most vulnerable moment our patients are in to be like, by the way, This is what this is going to 

[00:05:44] look like, 

[00:05:45] by the way we already put your legs up.

[00:05:47] We already took the bed off 

[00:05:48] hope. 

[00:05:48] You’re okay with 

[00:05:49] this. 

[00:05:50] And you should just keep pushing because this is how we do it. 

[00:05:54] So personally, I think it’s because of medical professionals and medical industry. Knows and recognizes that if patients and pregnant people know these things before going in, they might become a more difficult patient.

[00:06:08] They might become a more, you know, assertive patient. They might start to say no in places where if we go ahead and get your, your legs up in the stirrup, I mean, what are you going to do? You’re going to say no while you’re on your back with the syrups already in check, right? Like it gives those patients and those clients and those birthing people, any patient, not even a pregnant person, but any patient, the opportunity, almost like a fore warning of like, you have options here.

[00:06:34] You don’t have to be in the stirrups You don’t have to use the foot rest. And I think that that triggers a lot of medical professionals because that’s your control. That’s how you keep control in the room. That’s how you were trained. That’s how you were told that you keep these people safe. And if you can’t do that, Okay, how are you going to keep these people safe?

[00:06:53] And instead of looking at yourself and going all right, my tools of the stirrups and the foot rest have been taken away from me. What other tools do I have to continue to keep these people safe? Instead you just spiral and you go, oh my God. Well now I can’t keep people safe. And that I think is just, that is, it is where we are in healthcare right now.

[00:07:12] We’ve got to start digging deeper in ourselves to say, okay, if all of my tools aren’t available to me, how do I still get my job done in a safe way, keep everyone safe and also reduce the most amount of trauma as possible for everyone involved. 

[00:07:28] But I think that, I think that speaks more to an overriding savior complex and medicine, right?

[00:07:35] It is not, it is not my job, whether it’s in a relationship with my partner or my parents or my friends, or as a physician with a patient, it is not my job. To fix you or even to necessarily ensure your safety my job is to make sure that you understand what are the options. And then I give you information as to what is probably the safest or the most likely to succeed or whatever, whatever it is.

[00:08:08] And then it is your body. You then make that decision, right? So my job is not to ensure that everything goes well. My job is to make sure that you understand that the choice that you’re making may or may not make it more likely that things are going to go sideways. And if they do to understand what my personal own next steps are, I can’t control you as a patient.

[00:08:35] That’s, it’s ludicrous to think that I, as, as an, as a professional, should be able to control. Who you are Cause there’s no other aspect of my relationship where I do that. Like, I don’t look at my partner and tell my partner, like, Hey, if you leave cereal out in the living room, we’re going to get ants. So make the call.

[00:08:54] Do you want to answer, or do you want to put your cereal away? Like 

[00:08:57] it’s 

[00:08:58] exactly how people are spoken to though, 

[00:09:01] but that’s that like, that’s my that’s if you, and if he chooses to leave the cereal out. Okay. We’ve got ants I guess now we have to, we have to deal with the ants, right? So we’re going a birthing space.

[00:09:14] Okay. You can, how do you, how do you want to do this? Like you can, can continue to do this or we can do this. I think like option B is going to be safer, but like if you choose option a, you chose option a, okay. So then now we got to 

[00:09:31] like 

[00:09:31] whole deep dive into actually what are the goals? And actually, I probably should ask the person who we need to prioritize their goals.

[00:09:39] What yeah. What, what it looks like it’s a whole it’s, it’s not in the moment. And these conversations can hopefully help the folks that are in the room that have only done it that way, that perpetuate that that’s the normal way. That’s how we do it. That’s policy that’s that you and I, we thought we were clarifying language because of a location difference.

[00:10:05] Right. We thought we were clarifying language because we didn’t know the alternative languages for each other. You know, you were like, Hey, we don’t use bed. 

[00:10:12] And now we’re like, but everyone does. So are we confusing folks? Are we condescending? Because we say foot rests. And then someone decides that they’re going to rest my leg for me.

[00:10:23] Like, that’s not what we talked about on the internet. I don’t want to rest of my life. Like I’m on my hands and knees. Why do I need to rest my leg It’s, it’s also this internal conversation and I want, I want to, I want to wrap up and be respectful of your time. And I want, I want folks to remember the conversations that you’re having in your practice are our responsibility, everyone hearing this podcast, your conversations in your practice are our responsibility.

[00:10:56] We have to be aware of our language. The examples that you gave are really great examples of there are no rules for this, right? And so we can come up with new language. We should be coming up with new language. We should be talking about it with each other because we look like a bunch of fools right now.

[00:11:17] Yes. 

[00:11:19] Talking about all the same things 

[00:11:21] and we’re what we’re hurting people, right? Not only do we look like clowns out there, but we are actively harming the people that we all have dedicated our lives to helping. So we’re not even meeting our end goals of what we originally all got into this field for.

[00:11:40] It is, it hurts my heart. When I see when I have a patient in my office who is shaking at the concept of what is about to happen and because no one has ever had a conversation with them about it, like ever. And I think to myself, no other, no other relationship where someone sees you naked has no conversation.

[00:12:10] And if it did, you would exit out of that relationship and you would consider the fact that what they did off. Yeah, awful. Right. If somebody ever put you in a situation where you were undressed and they didn’t speak to you, you would, no one would think that is okay. Why is it just accepted within this relationship?

[00:12:32] Right. And I tell patients, this is supposed to be a team effort. It is my job to tell you the options and your job to tell me which one works for you, right? I need you to communicate with me so that we can come up with a good decision and I will communicate with you. And sometimes your options are going to be many, and sometimes your options are going to be few.

[00:12:54] And, but ultimately you have to tell me what’s going to work for you because you values and your needs. And your goals for yourself might not line up with mine as you a physician. 

[00:13:07] So we have to have that conversation, but it’s not the patient’s job to start that right. I can’t spend, you know, 90% of my day going, I’m the professional who’s trained and has education.

[00:13:24] You should value what I’m providing for you. And then 10% of the time go, well, it’s not, I’m not supposed to say that I’m not supposed to start that. Well, no, like I would initiate a conversation about antibiotics. Why wouldn’t I be the one to initiate the conversation about what a pap is and what a pelvic exam is like?

[00:13:47] It’s this very, 

[00:13:47] Not my problem type of mentality, which is so real to me in medicine, because it doesn’t apply anywhere. 

[00:13:55] Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:13:57] Not my problem. Well, there’s a lot of problems. So if you can just get one off your plate, I can understand why folks will be like, I’m going to need this. Like professionals will need a barrier.

[00:14:09] A little bit, instead of just bringing, like, let’s just bring in the way that we do it. Let’s just do it that way because that’s what I’m used to and you know, you good? You good? We good? All right, we’re good. Everyone’s good. Then there’s the one. Most people aren’t good. 

[00:14:23] The one thing I will say to listeners who are in, who are professionals in this regard, and it really, really helped me when I was early in my trauma informed kind of space.

[00:14:34] And it actually works really well for personal relationships too, is remind yourself repeatedly that intent is not the same as outcome and you’re not appalling. Like you can apologize for both. Okay. Just because you didn’t intend to hurt somebody or intend to cause a reaction or intend to do something that retraumatized somebody doesn’t mean that, that wasn’t the.

[00:15:02] outcome Right. You can apologize for having done something to somebody and acknowledge that, that wasn’t what you intended to do. And that works the same in a birthing space or in a doctor’s office, as it does in a car accident. Right. I didn’t intend to hit your car, but I can apologize for the fact that I rear-ended, you hurt you.

[00:15:25] Yes. And that I hurt you. And it works really well in an relationships. It works great with kids when you’re trying to teach kids what that means, but in a birthing state, like you are allowed to do that. And you are allowed to, you are allowed as a provider to take a step back and recognize that you’re being absolutely ridiculous about something and change course.

[00:15:49] Yeah. I’ve done it with like my, my own partner where I’ve had, like, we’ve been in an argument and I’ve had to step back. I’m being ludicrous right about this right now. Like it’s coming from a deep, visceral emotional thing. 

[00:16:02] It’s ridiculous. 

[00:16:03] It’s my own personal thing. I got to step back. You can do that as a provider.

[00:16:07] If you’re sitting there and you’re pushing on somebody to do something and you’re getting frustrated and it’s getting ridiculous, you’re allowed to take a step back and go. 

[00:16:18] I’m 

[00:16:18] being like, I’m not being smart or intentional about this. And it’s from something deeper. And I have to like taking 

[00:16:28] it personal.

[00:16:29] I don’t need to take this personal, this feels inside of me, this isn’t inside of me. This is your experience, your pap. 

[00:16:37] Exactly, exactly. And I was very, very fortunate that my training was. Diverse leaders and an incredibly diverse patient population that didn’t look like me. And so I was thrown into the deep end of learned that your way of doing things is not how everybody does things or thinks about things or speaks about things or feels about things.

[00:17:03] And so I was really fortunate, but if you’re not someone who works in that space, if you are the lone voice of change in that space, it’s okay to feel triggered. It’s okay to feel uncomfortable. It’s okay to recognize that you have emotional connections to things that you never realized that you did.

[00:17:23] And it’s okay to give yourself some grace and go, I really don’t like how this makes me feel, but I’ve gotta like figure out why. And then the more you model it and get comfortable, the more other people will, like my interns in residency were more comfortable because we were comfortable. And their interns will be more comfortable because they’re comfortable.

[00:17:43] But like, like you said earlier, we’re all learning. We’re all growing. We’re all trying to figure this out. Are none of us on this call are perfect. Like in this we all slip up. I slip up constantly. The point is to be intentional about it. 

[00:17:56] And to practice. It’s okay to practice, right? You’ve got to start somewhere.

[00:18:00] So pick today, choose today to start with tiny languages to start with tiny open-ended questions. Just one open-ended question per patient is good enough for a start and you can build on that. And if you mess up your language, just apologize, fix it and move right on. It. Doesn’t have to be a big thing.

[00:18:21] Patients will recognize when you are trying. They really do. And they expect us to mess up and that’s okay. You’re allowed to make mistakes as you’re learning and growing 

[00:18:33] classic example is I had a really difficult pelvic, 

[00:18:36] With a patient who is a female to male transgender patient. 

[00:18:40] They have a sexual assault history.

[00:18:41] They brought a supportive person with them. They had told me ahead of time that this was going to be a difficult experience for them. 

[00:18:48] So we had to talk through like dissociation and deep breathing. 

[00:18:51] Their partner who was there was nonbinary. I left that room going, oh my goodness. I mis-gendered them multiple.

[00:18:59] Like I called their partner. 

[00:19:01] I hadn’t used general neutral language on a couple of different occasions. I tried to use they them as much as I could. I definitely slipped up a couple of times. I felt awful. I saw that patient. So I just apologized and just said, Hey, like, oh, sorry. And whatever. Or like, I stuttered over myself a week later, my patient came back and I said, you know, how are you feeling?

[00:19:21] And they go, I can’t remember what their partner’s name was, but they’re like, my partner could not stop raving about that. They were so thrilled that you tried to use gender neutral language. Like they’d never seen a pap like that before. They couldn’t believe we talked about it. Like there was no. Like I’m here beating myself up about this.

[00:19:41] All they heard was that I was trying. Yeah. Right. So that is what you need to understand when you’re doing trauma informed language with patients is a lot of times just the fact that you are trying is remarkable to them. And it doesn’t mean you don’t try to get better, but give yourself some grace.

[00:20:01] Oh my goodness. You give your patients. Grace, you give your colleagues. Grace, give yourself some too. 

[00:20:06] And just breathe, breathe, try hard and breathe. 

[00:20:12] You said trying. And then earlier you said intent and outcome. You were trying externally Yes. That’s different than going in and being like, well, I didn’t try to hurt you.

[00:20:24] So 

[00:20:27] are 

[00:20:27] you like, how are you actually doing something that’s changing? How you always do it? How are you trying to prove it? I always think I have to come out as like a safe person, almost like wear it almost be very clear. So like, what you were doing was changing your language, that’s very clear. Hey, what are your pronouns?

[00:20:49] Or my pronouns are, or Hey, my name is Dr. So-and-so, but I like to be called this and that is an outward, I am open to whatever, you know, what you want to be called. I am acknowledging, Hey sometimes we do this, but you know, I’m open to this, this or this. And I’ve seen all kinds of things, even if you’re faking it.

[00:21:07] And you’re like, I just heard it on a podcast that it can be done this way. I don’t really know, but I’m open to it outwardly trying instead of like, well, if they just asked I would have done it That’s not, 

[00:21:18] it’s not, it’s not the same. 

[00:21:23] Yeah. That’s awesome. I love that story, Chrissy. Thank you so much. I knew this conversation would be so good I’m so sorry.

[00:21:32] It took like your whole morning. 

[00:21:34] No, it actually, it worked out really beautifully. I have not been able to have a conversation like this in a while since I got out of training and as always, I like, I am a huge proponent of education and advocacy and all of this stuff. And so it’s always a thrill to chat about it.

[00:21:54] I would encourage, you know, folks who want to dive in a little bit, there’s really great resources, all over Mandy’s page. And of course over like the internet and the like most major medical organizations have some sort of. Basic kick like bare bones discussions about trauma informed care. The American academy of family physicians has a whole article on kind of the basics.

[00:22:17] They’ve got a good, a couple of lines in there for some script changes that you can make. Some of which we touched on, but this was, this was delightful. I loved this 

[00:22:26] Yeah. And Stephanie Tillman, have you ever learned from Stephanie Tillman? 

[00:22:30] No. No. So unfortunately not, I am still kind of like Stephanie told she’s on my, she’ll be on my list.

[00:22:37] I’m going to connect 

[00:22:38] you. Yeah. I’m going to connect you because you’re. Like right there on track and, and it’s exciting and you speak about it so well, you teach about it so well, and I’m so thrilled for your students and interns and team to have this opportunity. And I know they are so grateful for it.

[00:22:57] If they don’t tell you every minute of every day, 

[00:23:01] they work 

[00:23:02] in a unique space, it does come up or it doesn’t, 

[00:23:04] it doesn’t, we’re usually so busy educating patients that we never touch base with. 

[00:23:08] eachother 

[00:23:08] So grateful for this background that you are giving them. You’re such a patient educator that not just your clients, which I know, you know, but if you don’t get those DMS that you’ve changed their lives, then I’ll, I’m happy to remind you anytime this it’s life changing, what your doing 

[00:23:25] I thank you. Thank you very much. And I’ll say the same for you guys. I, you know, followed you Mandy, because I really love the education that you were putting out and the advocacy. And so if you’re ever wondering if you’re reaching out to people, you are, cause I’m relatively well versed in some of the stuff that you’re already talking about.

[00:23:39] And I still follow for honor for content. So it’s been, it’s been delightful. 

[00:23:46] Thanks. 

[00:23:46] Okay. 

[00:23:47] Well, anytime you want to chat, we’re here. We’ll push record or not. I love it. And thank you so much for your time. 

[00:23:53] It’s an honor. 

[00:23:54] Well, thank you. If you ever end up, you know, having another conversation and want a physicians, you know, point 

[00:24:02] of view.

[00:24:02] Yes. I already like, yep. I have some ideas. turning 

[00:24:06] come hit 

[00:24:06] me up and we’ll continue to have a conversation like this because it’s, it needs to happen. And like we had said, when we talked, you know, it’s physician nursing communication in the working space, especially is often. 

[00:24:22] Frogging at 

[00:24:23] best. And so, you know, what, if we’re going to have a conversations in safe spaces for patients, we should do it for other professionals as well.

[00:24:30] I was super activated Chrissy. I am so grateful that that we can adult. I feel like I was using all of my adult muscles to get over that abuse in the past and just be like this, person’s not here to tell me what to do this. Person’s not here to put me in time out. This person is here to have a grownup conversation and we’re centering the patient and I can feel really safe with that instead of you’re centering your feelings around my use of the words.

[00:25:01] Right. Which is usually what happens. Yeah. 

[00:25:04] And it wasn’t for you just come at somebody. Yeah. Which I thought to myself, how. Would I like, like, especially, oh my goodness. Especially being young women in the medical field. Yeah. Oh my goodness. The liberties people take the audacity, the, the utter audacity like, oh my goodness.

[00:25:23] And I’ve had like, people tell me, like, you know, you always, like, I dress professionally for work. I don’t wear scrubs. And they said, why do you dress professionally? I said, look, if I put scrubs on and sneakers, I look like I’m about 19. Yeah. One of my barriers to getting people, to take me seriously and to not take completely inappropriate liberties with me is to look like a professional, because it’s harder to do that.

[00:25:50] When I look like the professional and the authority 

[00:25:53] of nurse, 

[00:25:55] they call you the nurse 

[00:25:57] constantly click the number. Okay. It’s bananas. The number of emails that I get that are related to miss so-and-so, despite people knowing I’m a doctor, the number of emails that I get, where they refer to Dr. Jones, Dr.

[00:26:09] Smith and Chrissy, when we’re all physicians the number of patients who ask my nursing staff, am I going to meet the doctor? And they then have to explain that was the doctor. And I actually had a patient look at my nurse and go, are you sure as if she’s also on incapable of doing this I’ve had patients, you know, refuse to stop having a conversation.

[00:26:32] So like somebody showed up randomly. Somebody showed up to randomly to have a procedure done that my nurse was going to do. She happened to be off that day. So I started the conversation with, Hey, you know, so-and-so is out today, I’m running both of our schedules. Just letting you know, let’s quickly.

[00:26:48] Let’s, let’s get this done and get you home. And he goes, Well, I have a full appointment tomorrow next week. So we’ll just do that now I said no, like I have another patient here. No, it’s fine. We can just talk about it now. No, like no, no. Yeah. Well, I mean, there’s no point in me coming back so we can just take a seat.

[00:27:06] We’ll talk about it now. I’m like 

[00:27:09] I said, it’s funny because my, no, usually means shut your mouth, 

[00:27:17] right? Exactly. Exactly. I’ve been referred to as the nurse I’ve 

[00:27:21] been, I’ve 

[00:27:22] had patients look at my medical student as a third year. Chief resident 

[00:27:26] had my students look at my medical student 

[00:27:28] and go, what do you think?

[00:27:28] I was incredibly, incredibly fortunate to work with male residents and male attendings who had no qualms about letting patients know. What my role on the team was and deferring to me and speaking to me in that manner, 

[00:27:46] Which means that I have a lot less patience for it now because I was empowered for so long.

[00:27:52] But the, if this is what people are comfortable doing in person in a physicians office, I can only imagine what they are comfortable doing behind the anonymity of social media and a keyboard. So I had that in my head when I reached out to you of as a young female in this space, how would I feel if somebody came at me for something?

[00:28:21] Yeah, basically. Yes. Yes. 

[00:28:22] And really, really wanted to provide, I wanted to have the conversation, but I also know that I’m not entitled to. Your time or mental energy or anything else. 

[00:28:34] So I love that it worked out. 

[00:28:35] And for, I 

[00:28:37] I love that I 

[00:28:37] chose my words in the way that I did because that happened. Yeah. I’m really grateful for those 

[00:28:42] words.

[00:28:43] Exactly. And for everybody else, you know, who, who is listening, if you want to have a conversation with a colleague or someone else consider opening up that line of communication like that, right? Like where you asked for permission to enter somebody’s space. And if they say no, then respect that. Right.

[00:29:03] Also recognize that if they’re not there to meet you, it’s going to be an incredibly frustrating conversation for you anyways. And you don’t want to do that for your own mental health. 

[00:29:12] I don’t take it personally, like stepping away and like needing a minute because I was activated, had nothing to do with you.

[00:29:20] You can’t take it personally. I literally needed a minute cause I didn’t want to spout off because I felt like it was important. And I wanted to be intentional, like you said, I think, I think as young, okay. Young women, young professionals in healthcare. Oh my gosh. I don’t know. I’m young, but you all are young white women.

[00:29:44] Yes. Healthcare, white professionals. Having these conversations. I do think it is our responsibility to have them publicly when we are comfortable. And we can, we have the capacity because, and having them with each other, because our audiences online, mine are mostly white. When someone has the audacity to come at me, I am sharing like, oh, we’re having these conversations.

[00:30:09] Here’s, here’s the thing that you don’t know. We have to be, you know, we have to be in these new spaces. Here’s some books that I’m reading to help me. Learn about these new spaces. Here are some things that I’m doing trauma informed, or I’m learning about a history of obstetric violence, learning about the history of midwifery and how it was completely abused and, and how racism plays into and white supremacy plays into my discomfort with someone having the audacity is like my own thing that I’m having to work through and it is being white and it is the privilege of being white and being female, being educated, being middle-class.

[00:30:51] So I really like that we can do that specifically in uniquely, 

[00:30:58] Because we’re women in medicine, but also because we’re a nurse and a physician and a doula holy cow of having these like open conversations of teaching each other, being open and. Taking criticism and feedback and absolutely. How Are we improving the space and still centering the patient?

[00:31:20] And also what book club are you in so that you’re covering all your bases because there’s still all of these right. Open spots of needing education. 

[00:31:30] Right? And so like, basically, I guess if you boil down to it, be intentional about how you talk to people and give yourself grace to learn. And that is humility.

[00:31:41] Like if you have yes, if you, if you do your best to model those two things, not only are you going to probably have better relationships with patients, clients, colleagues, but your own mental health and you know, is going to improve. If you allow yourself to make mistakes and learn and grow, and you do your best to be kind and.

[00:32:11] Intentional and sensitive to folks. 

[00:32:14] Because I don’t know if anybody else is listening, but I know that when I find out that I have hurt somebody, it makes me feel like garbage. 

[00:32:20] So why would you not do your best to not do that? And also, you know, not feel that way, but like, not feel awful to yourself when you, when you mess up like up.

[00:32:38] Oh, thanks. 

[00:32:40] Yeah. I do have some ideas. I’m going to send you a Stephanie. 

[00:32:43] I almost want to like, have another one and talk about pap smears specifically. I know you talked about it today, but Stephanie talks a little bit and that’s where my midwife learned about paps and I experienced. a pap After my midwife is like, I was like, what you’re doing is different.

[00:32:58] And she’s like, have you heard of Stephanie Tillman? I’m like, oh my God. Yeah.

[00:33:06] Yeah. 

[00:33:06] Awesome. Thank you so much. This was, I want to copy and paste you a million and five times and just disperse you like everywhere all over the world to every clinic and hospital.

[00:33:20] I wish that all providers had the mentality of, I am secondary. My patient is primary and it is my job to make sure that they feel comfortable 

[00:33:33] and I’m hoping 

[00:33:34] and hoping 

[00:33:35] that we are kind of part of that transitional. You know, transition right where the old school is starting to become quieter, less of how we do it.

[00:33:45] And you know, more and more folks are coming out of training and entering into this space with that intention. 

[00:33:51] That is, that is the goal. 

[00:33:53] Okay.

[00:33:53] Thanks. Talk to you soon. 

[00:33:55] Bye guys. 

[00:33:55] Bye. 

[00:33:55] Thank you so much for joining us for this week’s pulse check podcast. If you want to be on the pulse check podcasts either anonymously or not tell us your story, or have a conversation about the topics that we’ve discussed or haven’t discussed. You can find us on Instagram at pulse check dot podcast.

[00:34:11] Also, there 

[00:34:12] are links below that Dr. Sheeler has shared with us. If you want to learn more and creep into that trauma informed care space, I encourage you to look at the links below and we’ll see you next. bye!, .